Ep 202 Transcript

The following is a largely AI-generated transcript for our Episode 202. Excuse any errors, we’re trying to catch up on these and need to sort out a workflow. Want to help make our transcripts better? Let us know if you can help our support us on Patreon.

[00:00:56] Ian Bushfield: The leg is out for summer. Shannon, you had a nice, you had a nice description of the hybrid setting hybrid sitting when I asked you about it.

[00:01:06] Shannon Waters: Thanks. I hate it.   wouldn’t say it hasn’t gone. Well, I just, there’s a lot of things that I find frustrating about the hybrid setting and I’m sure that I’m not alone in this, but like many things are just more frustrating.

[00:01:20] It’s more disjointed things like, division votes take forever. you can’t. Like one of my favorite things about question period had been being able to see, you know, all the MLS down on the floor of the chamber. And you could see like who was bored and doodling and who is really frustrated. You could hear some of the heckling and that kind of thing, which has kind of disappeared during the summer sitting, not the heckling entirely, but, anybody who’s not physically in the chamber, their mikes get muted when it’s not their turn.

[00:01:53] So. You are missing a lot of the color. and it ha you know, it’s, it’s felt like a slog. I was talking to my boss, Alison Smith, who works out in Ontario and covers the legislature out there. And we were talking about how summer sittings just somehow feel like more of a drag than being in the legislature in the fall or in the spring.

[00:02:14] Ian Bushfield: Are MLAs, able to see one another, like I know they’re using zoom, so do they get gallery view? Whereas we have to look at the like speaker view.

[00:02:22] Shannon Waters: sure. How it works for the MLA, like what their perspective is like, what happens if you’re in the chamber, they’ve installed all these big, huge video screens.

[00:02:31] There’s four of them that were put up in the chamber to make the hybrid sitting this summer possible. and typically what happens is one of them is dedicated to the room. So you can see the little tiny thumbnails, almost indistinguishable of all of the MLS who are in attendance virtually. And then what, so there’s two on each side of the chamber.

[00:02:55] So one on each side are dedicated to the room view, and then there is one on each side shows, whoever is speaking. If they’re speaking. Virtually. So you get like this closeup of whoever it is, who has the floor. but I don’t know what the MLA is themselves can see. So it is kind of similar to the Hansard view.

[00:03:16] It is restrictive. you don’t get as much of, you know, people’s expressions and stuff like that. Although, as we talked about the last time you guys had me on, there are some interesting, Backgrounds and you’d get a peek into some of the MLAs living rooms, which has been kind of fun.

[00:03:32] Scott de Lange Boom: Who has the best background?

[00:03:33] Shannon Waters: Oh, that is, it’s a tough choice and probably a matter of taste. there have been a few interesting, bookshelves that have come out. I want to say quarterly Oaks had a very interesting, set up at one point, just in terms of sort of camera angle. And she had her bookcase sort of on the side. I still am wondering what Bob D has behind his giant.

[00:03:58] BC flag backdrop for his, for whatever his room is that. Yeah. You just see a giant flag of British Columbia behind him when he’s speaking.

[00:04:10] Ian Bushfield: One of the things we were discussing before we hit record was that I guess that technical challenges still haven’t been fully sorted out. Like, are they still struggling with the mute button?

[00:04:20]Shannon Waters: Little bit. It definitely comes up. I would say almost every day, there will be an individual who, who begins their remarks or their response. And then the speaker has to say, remember, your microphone appears to be on mute. I wouldn’t say it’s been, you know, a huge deal, but there, there have been occasions where they’ve been doing, division votes, which have to be.

[00:04:46] Vocal, for other votes Emily’s can hold up these Modin cards to show how they’re voting, but when it comes to division, they actually have to say, I vote, I, or I vote nay. And there have been a few times where an MLA we’ll get a chance, you know, to say their vote and they don’t. And then they give them another chance and they don’t and they just move on and then they have to come back to them, at the end of things.

[00:05:09] So, yes, we are still having some technical difficulties in the chamber.

[00:05:13]Ian Bushfield: Virtual voting really feels like one of those things it’s much easier. Like using the polling options or any number of things in here, but we’re stuck on this. You must say it to be recorded.

[00:05:24] Shannon Waters: Yes. You must say it or you must physically demonstrate it, which is what happens in the chamber with a, with, with a standing vote.

[00:05:32]so they’ve kind of preserved that aspect, of proceedings

[00:05:35]Scott de Lange Boom: I’ve been watching more of the Vancouver council than anyone really should. And I swear like every third vote, someone needs a vote assist on their remote things. So I don’t know if that’s just Vancouver’s unique matte style of dysfunction, or if that’s just not as easy as it

[00:05:54] Shannon Waters: looks,

[00:05:55]Ian Bushfield: I guess that is just 11 people.

[00:05:57] So 87 would be much more difficult.  of, of all those MLS though, have there been any, who’ve been real standouts in this virtual setting, like have any really taken to it and are able to wield the camera to their advantage?

[00:06:12] Shannon Waters: None that have like super, super stood out to me, the ones who have caught my attention honestly, are the ones who are in the house on a day to day basis. So for the government that is typically, Mostly ministers. And a lot of those, those who are here in Victoria or close to it. So the premier has been around through most of the session.

[00:06:35]although we hadn’t seen him in question period, all that often at least not responding until today. He took most of the questions in the final question period today. And, also today they were working on the finance ministry estimates, which are always a highlight for me. partly because, finance, mr.

[00:06:53] Carol James is such a consummate politician. Very polished. Everything goes smoothly. she’s always very Corteal. Which I find impressive in an environment that can be as sort of conflict heavy and oppositional was the legislature. and then on the liberal side, you have the finance critics, both of whom are also women currently it’s Shirley Bond.

[00:07:16] And, Stephanie could do.  and, Stephanie, you stepped in to replace Tracy readies when she got sick last year. so she was pulled off her critic, portfolio because she wasn’t able to come into the legislature was focused on her recovery. but she actually did participate in on the finance ministry estimates a bit this time round.

[00:07:37] And it’s always, I always find it fine even though, you know, a lot of people would find it very dry material, just to watch these women who are sort of political powerhouses here in the province, go back and forth. Yeah. I mean, the other thing we kind of came up recently actually, Vancouver, sun reporter, Rob Shaw, pointed that out.

[00:07:56] I’d missed the first introduction. so today Jennifer Rice, who is an NDP MLA, had her son in the house, her infant son, whose name is Lewa, and introduced him. And, David Eby, these are in general also introduce the newest addition to his family earlier in the session. So even though we’re having a hybrid session and mostly, you know, not as many people in the house, we have still had the babies coming in who have only been allowed in the house fairly recently.

[00:08:25]Ian Bushfield: I take it, none have brought their babies to a virtual sitting like Noner behind their webcam with their. Baby or their cat in their lap.

[00:08:34] Shannon Waters: There has been one again, it was David Eby. and this came from a tweet from another NDP, MLA, who said, and I, I can’t entirely confirm this because the, the shot was not super focused or, Like completely on center on the attorney lateral, but reportedly he was changing a diaper cheering, one of the votes that was taking place in the house.

[00:08:58] So, still taking on those childcare duties, even when he’s at home.

[00:09:02]Scott de Lange Boom: Oh, well, let’s jump into, what actually got done. But before that, there are a couple of major bills that didn’t get through a bill  clean energy amendment act and bill, 22 of the mental health amendment act. how come, those didn’t get passed. And what are you hearing about whether they’ll be coming back?

[00:09:23]Shannon Waters: Oh, with bill 22, it kind of depends on who you ask when it was first announced that the bill wouldn’t pass during the summer mental health and addictions minister, Judy Darcy said that there wasn’t enough time, to deal with the legislation. you know, to have it go through the process committee stage can be quite involved and take awhile, particularly when other MLS have concerns about the content of the bill.

[00:09:48] and so sure Darcy said, you know, we don’t have time to do this. We’re going to wait until the fall. And coincidentally, that will give us time to do some further consultations with people. And there were very groups of people who had issues with this bill.  the same day that was announced, the premier said that they didn’t have the support in the legislature to pass it, which later also appeared to be true.

[00:10:14]the green caucus came out and said, we can’t support this bill. As it currently stands. You know, there needs to be more consultation. They flagged, indigenous people who had concerns about the Bill’s effect on indigenous youth.  and then the liberal mental health and addictions critic, Jane Thornthwaite came out and said, nobody supports this bill.

[00:10:34]so could be either or a lack of time, a lack of support either way. It’s not going anywhere until at least this fall

[00:10:44]Ian Bushfield: and the clean energy amendment tact was one that’s face some other opposition from the green party as well.

[00:10:51]Shannon Waters: Yes. so this is bill that would make a lot of changes to the way BC hydro operates on various fronts.

[00:10:59] It is a beast of a bill. And the issue that has sort of come the four is around the requirement, BC hydro self-sufficiency requirement. you know, having the utility purchase power from within the province rather than purchasing power from sources outside the province. and the, the, the crux of the issue that is causing problems are, changes,  that could.

[00:11:25]I’m sorry, let me collect my thoughts for a second here. So the crux of the issue that is causing problems for the bill are a group called independent power producers. So small scale power projects in the province, a lot of them run of river, and many of them have indigenous involvement. they, some of them are owned and operated by first nations.

[00:11:46] Others have first nations investment in them. And the worry is that allowing BC hydro to purchase power from out. Side of the province could put these projects at a disadvantage, and potentially end some of them because the cost, would it be competitive compared to where BC hydro could get this extra power from?

[00:12:07] So the greens have also flag concerns about the definition of clean energy within the bill and propose some amendments to change it. No, the bill never made it past second or past first reading. Pardon me? so basically he was introduced the minister, talked about it and then it just sat there. and then, so there was some conflict between our independent MLA, Andrew Weaver, who used to be the leader of the BC green party.

[00:12:32] And he criticized his former party for proposing. These amendments saying essentially that they should’ve waited until it got to committee stage to propose amendments. That’s how the process works, et cetera, et cetera. We were heads his own amendments that he said he wanted to put forward if the bill made it to committee stage.

[00:12:51] But at the beginning of this week, government host leader, Mike Farmer confirmed that it too would not be going anywhere this summer. and so I guess we’ll see. What happens with it? when we come back, possibly probably at some point this fall,

[00:13:07]Scott de Lange Boom: what was the, a definitional issue? The dream party had with clean power.

[00:13:12] Shannon Waters: basically like they sort of wanted to make it more specific. I don’t have that the amendment itself in front of me, it was fairly extensive. but from what I remember, like the focus was ensuring that it was, you know, With renewable energy and sort of a more technical definition around what clean energy really means, for the province.

[00:13:37] So it’ll be interesting to see if those amendments are incorporated, like before the greens chance to propose them at committee stage, or if, you know, the government will sort of give the greens the opportunity to put these amendments forward and then support them.

[00:13:53]Ian Bushfield: Of all the criticisms Andrew Weaver has had for his former fellows, caucus members this year, bringing amendments forward too early or not following the exact right procedure as among the like wonkiest.

[00:14:07] And tamest say of the criticisms, he’s been rather a cervic this term.

[00:14:16]Shannon Waters: Little bit. He’s definitely thrown some shade at his former party on a couple of different levels. Hey sort of description of the way the greens were handling bill 22 or sorry, bill 17, the clean energy amendment act was throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[00:14:35]you know, Sort of acknowledging that yes, there are some problems with the bill, but it’s fixable saying that you’re not going to support it, you know, and, and forcing the government to sort of rethink the whole thing. He was kind of framing that as, you know, dramatic or extreme.  And I don’t have his specific amendments in front of me.

[00:14:53] I believe they’re actually on the order paper or they were recently, To me, they seem quite similar. Like he was, he was addressing many of the same issues around sort of what specifically, we mean by clean energy and the focus on, you know, developing renewables and making them part of a BC hydro power package

[00:15:14]Scott de Lange Boom: party to come out against the clean energy act.

[00:15:18] Just because a bunch of it doesn’t actually happen. Within BC. I, I kind of get the, you always want to be supporting, you know, jobs in the province and whatnot, but you know, you can get cheap, clean power from Washington state. Why not?

[00:15:36]Shannon Waters: Yeah. I’ve heard a bunch of concerns on this front from sort of various aspects, the one issue, that sort of thing.

[00:15:44] It strikes me that hadn’t come up a lot, in discourse around, you know, potential problems or things that could be improved about the bill was when BC passed the legislation to sort of bring the United nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples into provincial law. That part of that bill commits the province to ensuring that the, any future legislation upholds the principles of UNDRIP and that sort of includes economic development and self-determination opportunities for indigenous people.

[00:16:21] And potentially there might be a bit of a conflict between what that bill mandates as, as I see it anyways, what that bill mandates and the effect that shutting down a bunch of these independent power production projects could have on indigenous people. and that is sort of the criticism that has come from some indigenous stakeholders like that.

[00:16:44] It doesn’t fit with this commitment that BC just made last year. Yeah,

[00:16:49] Ian Bushfield: it kind of reflects a different approach to the issues that I think the BC liberals took, which was a really try to encourage these types of developments and just try to help communities ideally fund themselves in the longer term and economically develop whether that was through LNG or through independent, you know, these IPP projects or even pipelines in some cases.

[00:17:15]Shannon Waters: The criticism of the IPP is, has been that the power, like the contracts that were signed and the power rates that we’re committed to are. Too expensive. and so that is sort of part of why it’s a big issue, to allow BC hydro to purchase cheaper power from elsewhere. you know, that could potentially go quite badly for a lot of these projects.

[00:17:35]Ian Bushfield: Well, let’s switch into some of the government’s, notches on the wind column. They did manage to pass the rest of their legislative agenda. This session, among the big. Bill’s in, there was the ICBC amendments, the overhaul to enhanced care. Some of the changes to the strata act. Although those weren’t ultimately that substantive, I think, was the main criticism and then a bunch of stuff related to the pandemic.

[00:18:03] I’m sure I’m missing some others. You know, what, what did you see the government highlighting the most and, or, you know, what did the opposition fight most tooth and nail on?

[00:18:14]Shannon Waters: You’ve kind of touched on them. I already like the ICBC bill, and the strata issues bill, which the government has described as its first steps to deal with this issue around strata insurance premiums.

[00:18:28]those were the ones that really took up a lot of time. This session, you know, there was extended debate at committee. in some cases I believe amendments were proposed. Can’t remember if any past now that I think about it, anyways, those took up a lot of time, for sure. If the ICBC bill was probably sort of the flagship piece of legislation that passed during the summer session, because the government had already set this timeline to shift to the enhanced care model by next spring.

[00:18:59]so it, it sort of needed to get passed in order. To lay the groundwork for making that change. yeah. And it’s basically like that is the NDPs sort of. Solution to fixing ICBC, you know, they’ve, they’ve done a bunch of other stuff at this point. They’ve made a lot of changes, but this is sort of the package that is supposed to both delivered cheaper insurance premiums for people and better quality care.

[00:19:30] For people who are injured in vehicle collisions, including people who are at fault for those collisions, which had been identified as sort of a big gap in the way our system currently works. You know, people who, you know, potentially. Just through bad luck can be found at fault. For very serious accidents can be badly hurt in very serious accidents.

[00:19:53] And under the current system, how much support they can get is kind of dependent on how at fault they are found to be.  so that’s gonna be, I mean, it’ll be interesting to see if the bill lives up to, you know, the government has talked it up a lot. They have, You know, poured a lot into this legislation.

[00:20:10] David Eby has talked it up all over the place he has had to, you know, fend off a lot of criticism, both from the liberals and from the insurance industry over the bill and the government’s approach, the ICBC in general. You know, and the promises sound really nice, who doesn’t want cheaper car insurance and better care if you end up getting hurt in an accident, the question is, is it going to do exactly what the government says it’s going to do at this point?

[00:20:39]Ian Bushfield: And undoubtedly, we’ll see a bunch of challenges from various lawyers, associations, and others to try to take it on legally, but. I

[00:20:49] Shannon Waters: believe the attorney generalized basically said that. Yeah, he is like, he believes the odds of it being challenged are a hundred percent, you know, there, there will be some kind of legal challenge to it likely coming from, you know, someone like the trial lawyers association, who really don’t like the bill because it removes to a large degree, the role of lawyers from within the system.

[00:21:14]Ian Bushfield: There are many nice lawyers, but like don’t know that this has been the most helpful realm for them. In many cases, there are some, who’ve got some, you know, victims in these situations are people injured who definitely need representation. There will still be a realm for that, but I don’t know the current I’m pessimistic about the current system and I’m.

[00:21:34]I don’t know, maybe I’m onside with some of the changes, but like you say, lots still needs to be seen.

[00:21:39]Shannon Waters: Yeah. And there’s definitely not a lot of love or trust for ICBC out there. And the way the system works is it kind of, the attorney general has described it as sort of removing the conflict for ICBC because in the current system there’s sort of.

[00:21:55] Both responsible for providing care for people who are hurt and also responsible for keeping costs down on the other side. So that doesn’t like, you can’t really do both of those most of the time. Yes. but you know, for a lot of people, if you say like, Oh, ICBC is, you know, with the help of health professionals going to determine sort of the care you need.

[00:22:17] Not a lot of people really like that idea either. And I can completely understand that. So. we’ll see how it goes next spring.

[00:22:24]Scott de Lange Boom: But before judge next spring, they’re probably going to be a fall session. Do we know what’s going to be coming up for that?

[00:22:33] Shannon Waters: right now, we don’t know for certain that there’s going to be a fall session is in the legislative calendar.

[00:22:39]you know, it’s, it’s still there from when the calendar was published early in the year before all this pandemic stuff happened. But talking to government house leader, Mike Farnworth earlier this week, he was asked, you know, is there going to be a fall session? Lot of uncertainty caused by the pandemic on various angles and.

[00:23:00] He was like, well, we’re not sure we’re keeping an eye on pace. Numbers were, you know, trying to figure it out. He did mention that the government was going to have two pieces of legislation on the order paper, ready to go, should there be a fall session and said, they’re also working on bills to further their legislative agenda.

[00:23:19]but. You know, if everything goes really sideways and you know, we go back to say where we were in early mid April, end of March, where sort of everything was shut down. I shutter to think of what an integral virtual, legislature session would look like. It gives me a headache just thinking about it.

[00:23:41]but if we can, do you have a false engine? I would expect it to be much like the summer one has been where we’re going to have some MLS in the house, you know, two dozen of them, or so. And then most of the rest of them participating virtually. I can’t speak to what the governments, you know, legislative priorities are that are outstanding.

[00:24:04] I mean, maybe we see something else on the strata insurance side of things. Maybe there’s more that’s related to the pandemic. maybe some more changes around labor standards. That was another big bill that passed the summer, changes to the way WorkSafe, BC and workers compensation work.  yeah, so we’ll see.

[00:24:25] Currently we’re scheduled to go back. I believe it’s the 5th of October, the first week in October. so if things get really crazy in the next few weeks, maybe that gets pushed back a couple of weeks. Maybe the fall session is only three weeks long. like so many things these days, I just don’t know what the future holds.

[00:24:45]Ian Bushfield: One of the things Horgan talked about quite a bit earlier in the pandemic and celebrated a month ago, was this commitment from the federal government to have paid. Sick leave. but we haven’t heard anything about that in almost a full month. I imagine the PR some of the provinces at least will need additional legislation.

[00:25:06] Has there been any updates as Oregon talked at all about that? Since

[00:25:09] Shannon Waters: Trudeau said

[00:25:11] Ian Bushfield: it was going to be a thing, and then it’s not been a thing

[00:25:14] Shannon Waters: during one of his weekly avails, haven’t got the opportunity in quite a while now. But yes. I mean, that certainly has to be something, I mean, It w it was top of mind a couple of months ago, Horgan was getting, you know, shout outs from other premiers, from driving the issue from Ontario.

[00:25:34]premier conservative, premier, Doug Ford of all people, you know, giving Horgan Hargan credit for pushing this issue, but it really has just pretty much entirely disappeared. I’ve heard nothing about it in weeks now. Well,

[00:25:48] Scott de Lange Boom: cases started despite you’d hope. They’d get onto that pretty quick.

[00:25:52]Shannon Waters: You would also, because BC doesn’t mandate any basically,  we had that emergency one day sort of mini session in March and they passed legislation that entitles people to three unpaid days, as well as preventing employers from terminating people due to COVID-19 like if they got sick.

[00:26:15] but for a lot of people. You know, if you’re not getting paid to stay home and you just feel like you, you know, maybe have the sniffles or a headache or something like that. The math there doesn’t work out for a lot of people. Like a day’s worth of wages are just too important. When the thing that this pandemic has really changed is that if you wake up in the morning and you don’t feel sort of very well in any respect at all, you need to stay home.

[00:26:43]and right now, you know, workers in BC don’t really have that option. If they’re living paycheck to paycheck,

[00:26:51]Scott de Lange Boom: Yeah.

[00:26:52]Ian Bushfield: Yeah, it was, I’ve been rewatching, some old episodes of a Mike home show. And he’s talking about how he’s almost like never taken a sick day in his life and his motto as. Was always just like you work sick.

[00:27:07] And I’m just watching this with like horror and disgust in contemporary settings. And he’s like on the show, like coughing and wheezing and I’m like, this is awful. And I get like the financial implications for him and he needed to do that in a way, but it’s not good for our culture.

[00:27:23]Scott de Lange Boom: No. And it’s not. That quick getting the results back.

[00:27:28] So I actually woke up not feeling great. Couple of days back went in for Tova task that took a little over two days to get it back at like noon. The two days after I was fine, I was set up to work from home. So no big deal, but, you know, I could definitely, it was still nevertheless disruptive. And I imagine for a lot of people that would, Be much worse, you know, it came back negative, thankfully, but it’s definitely a problem.

[00:27:57]Shannon Waters: Good. Glad to hear it. Okay. yeah, it, it, it’s one of those things that you do lose, there’s so much going on right now. There’s so many different issues that, you know, day to day are super important or mind blowing or depressing or whatever. But this shift of. If you are sick, you need to stay home is such a huge one for our culture.

[00:28:22] Like we’re just also used to, you know, having the sniffles, like if you can get up on a bed, you can go to work. That’s fine. And, you know, it was spreading around cold and flu germs. Isn’t great, but okay. By and large, you know, we’re just used to that. It happens. I used to work in a radio newsroom where we all shared mikes and we’re often in close proximity to each other and basically like all cold and flu season, we all just pass to wrap honed this.

[00:28:48] Like, there was always somebody who had a runny nose or a hoarse voice or cough, or, and that was just sort of the way things were. and. You know, as we go forward, that’s just something that can’t happen anymore or really shouldn’t happen anymore.

[00:29:05] Ian Bushfield: Well, we’re all safely remote over the internet on our recordings for quite a while now.

[00:29:11] But one of the things that the premier has been talking about where he hasn’t been talking about sick leave is I guess, fall election speculation. And that’s been the thing that seems to be buzzing. The ledge, press gallery and people there. I don’t want to spend too much more time on it. We’ve talked about it a couple of times in the last couple of weeks, but you know, what’s been your perspective on this.

[00:29:33] Shannon is, is this real or just hot air late in August?

[00:29:38]Shannon Waters: Horgan has certainly had lots of opportunities to close the door on the possibility of a fall election at least, and has declined to do so. his stance, basically we’re a minority government. Like I can guarantee any of this. he has said, you know, we’re focused on. Dealing with the pandemic. We’re focused on delivering services that British Colombians need pandemic or not.

[00:30:04]but he has declined. He’s declined to close the door on a fall election. He’s also declined to, during this week’s media availability, he was asked, you know, whether he might talk to the greens and the liberals and they could all make a pact and just decide to stick to the scheduled election date.

[00:30:20] Next October. and he sort of hearkened back to the partisanship of the legislature. It was like, have you watched question periods? Like it’s nasty and things are rash and people, you know, there’s tempers flaring and this kind of stuff. Like that’s politics. That’s the way the system works. I would be very surprised if we go to the polls before next spring.

[00:30:45]You know, I could see spring or summer being sort of preferable to potentially doing a follow election, depending on what we see this fall with case numbers and also co-infections with the flu possibly, or the pressure that influenza also places on our testing and hospital systems. but also like I I’ve been in the press gallery for almost three years now.

[00:31:10] And. The speculation about when there is going to be election has almost never stopped. We got a couple of months during the pandemic where nobody floated the idea of having an election anytime soon. And then as soon as the legislature went back, Horgan made his opportunity comment. And we’ve just been going since

[00:31:32] Scott de Lange Boom: then.

[00:31:33]Yeah. And the, breakout tend to, turn that up to 11. Cause I guess nobody else, or nobody has anything else to talk about.

[00:31:42] Shannon Waters: Well, and it’s one of those things that, you know, the other parties can fundraise off of. Certainly within a couple of hours of the premier making his latest remarks where he didn’t say no, we won’t have an election.

[00:31:53] This fall, the liberals are sending fundraising emails over the possibility of there being an election this fall.  I think one of the things that is starting to sink in now is just how long pandemic could be hanging around for, No, dr. Theresa Tam is now talking about potentially having to think about physical distancing and look at wearing masks when that’s not possible for two to three years.

[00:32:19] And if that is the case, we will have a provincial election under pandemic circumstances. Like, you know, we are bound to go back to the polls by mid October next year. So election SPC is supposed to be preparing dr. Bonnie Henry, you know, has talked about. So the fact that public health officials have been talking to elections VC about how you would hold, provincial elections under pandemics circumstances.

[00:32:44] And there are bile actions that are going to be coming up. certainly at the municipal level, there are already a couple that are scheduled to take place even this fall. and then we have a seat in the legislature that is going to be vacated at the end of this month. liberal MLA, Tracy readies for Surrey white rock is going to be stepping down.

[00:33:02] She’s going to go run science world, which honestly sounds like way more fun than being. it’s stuck in the legislature, on a regular base. so her seat will be open and it will have to be filled, or a by-election will have to be called within six months of her vacating. It.

[00:33:18]Scott de Lange Boom: So you’ve been listening to the premier much closer than I have.

[00:33:23]the way the news is kind of being reported, the election talk from him, it’s all kind of  you know, maybe, maybe not sort of thing, is that how it’s actually happening or is it more of a, well, I just don’t want to commit to anything one way or the other, because it’s a minority government.

[00:33:42]Shannon Waters: The minority government explanation is true. you know, they are a minority and if things, you know, Either potentially went sideways with the greens or, you know, even just the numbers in the house, like people get sick or have accidents or whatever, and prevented from coming into the house that changes the voting numbers.

[00:34:04] That being said, we don’t have a confidence vote coming up until next spring. So if we did have a election, it would be the government, it would be the NDP triggering it. which I think they would pay a price for it.  for Horgan mode, part of me thinks about what he’s like in question period and how he sort of likes to poke the opposition.

[00:34:26] And part of me thinks that he just sort of enjoys being able to publicly yank their chain at this point, which is something that he can do. Cause he gets the microphone sharing these weekly pressers.

[00:34:40]Ian Bushfield: Well, whether there’s an election. A false sitting or just a second wave. That’s terrifying. I’m sure this fall will be very busy and we’ll have lots to talk about in any case.

[00:34:54]Shannon Waters: When is BC poly ever boring or lacking in topics to talk about.

[00:35:01]  Ian Bushfield: Well, let’s move on to our next segment. School’s back for September. joining us now for this conversation is my partner Sonia Milbradt who’s a teacher here in Burnaby and we’ll keep you on Shannon, cause I’m sure you have perspectives from the press gallery on how BC school restart plan is going.

[00:35:22] So Sonia you’re on viral transmissions this last week. Well, we had no power. And so you got kind of cut off there. People should definitely listen to that episode. but just briefly from your perspective as a teacher, what exactly is going on?

[00:35:38] Sonia Milbradt: so we know kind of as much as the public knows, because we seem to be getting information about at the same time, the major.

[00:35:48] Press conference with  Rob Fleming, where the idea of cohorts was introduced, was the time when teachers were notified the same as the public. we do get ministry updates via. Email, but they tend to just be, look at our press release or quoting our press release. So we get a lot of secondhand information through the grapevine, through our union, groups and things like that.

[00:36:18] But, we’re all on break right now. We don’t get paid for summer break. So it’s a little bit weird.

[00:36:27] Ian Bushfield: So the official word is school returning on. Well, the official word was school returning on September 8th and then just, I think it was yesterday, the day before they updated the announcement to say school return would be delayed til the 10th or possibly sooner.

[00:36:44]Sonia Milbradt: Yeah. So what I’ve noticed, a lot of teachers talking about is that they’re calling this an orientation week, as if it is a week to help us get established and develop routines. Moving from the eighth to the 10th is not a week. It is today, first of all. And, the other thing is, yeah, that we’ve always kind of had a stigma start to the school year.

[00:37:07]if you even look at the younger grades, kindergarten has a very slow introduction model. that’s almost, I believe two weeks at the high school level. we’ve always just had the very first day back is an assembly. You kind of pick up your time table. sort of admin type things. So they’re not really giving us.

[00:37:29]a week and they’re not even really giving us two days. They’re giving us maybe an extra day in an hour, to learn all new procedures, basically, and also develop brand new lessons that will now add a year to the new requirements or new necessity of teaching. In a very enclosed, environment with a lot of bodies.

[00:37:59]Scott de Lange Boom: So yeah, that’s been kind of what I’ve seen as being the major criticism and uncertainties the, how do the schools do this safely? And it doesn’t appear to me

[00:38:10] Shannon Waters: that

[00:38:11]Scott de Lange Boom: more orientation is the thing that’s going to actually substantively change

[00:38:16] Shannon Waters: that.

[00:38:17]Sonia Milbradt: Right. Yeah. So when, the press conference with Rob Fleming was called and, he did announce that, Oh, we’re going into the stage two with these learning cohort cohorts.

[00:38:30]and all of that, the BCTF did have a response and there were five things they actually, said that they would be pushing for, and looking for, in order to make. Teachers feel safer. the first was more authentic consultation collaboration at the local level. They do seem to be having that at least, within my own union, I’ve noticed on our Facebook group, for example, there are numbers of the union representatives of the union who are on steering committees, who do feel that there is at least a chance to share, whether or not they’re being heard is another question.

[00:39:07]They also, the BCT have also wants all measures to be in place and tested before return. So, with August 26, kind of being the due date for release of the plans, that doesn’t seem to be that there will be measures in place or tested. the third thing they did want was time in September to plan for orientation.

[00:39:28]Terry Maureen has been on a couple of the BCTF president has been on. Couple of, places in the media saying, well, you know, we’re happy to get the two days, although I’m sure we would appreciate much more time. but the bigger thing is, they’re fourth and fifth requests for the BCTF is smaller classes as.

[00:39:48] Always, just in terms of good learning environments in general, the smaller, the class, the better, more effective learning is going to take place. and yeah, especially in a pandemic environment, smaller classes means you can actually spread them out because most of our classrooms fit 30 people side by side.

[00:40:08] Tables w or, various,  collaborative environments, because that’s the shift that the new curriculum has moved us towards. we don’t tend not to have individualized desks that can be separated anymore. and also clarity on this cohort model, because that also creates a huge risk factor in terms of, opening up these, these bubbles

[00:40:31] Ian Bushfield: and Shannon.

[00:40:32] You were speaking to Terry Moring this in the last. Earlier today or yesterday.

[00:40:37] Shannon Waters: Yes this morning, I cut out of my car period, live tweeting to have a conversation with Terry. I had, I contacted the BCTF yesterday, when we got the latest, adjustments to the back to school plan to see if they either had a statement or Terry had some time.

[00:40:52] And I believe she had like two dozen media interviews yesterday. and so I got a chance to speak to her for a few minutes this morning. And she, she kind of liked the concerns that Sonia was talking about. The they are still pushing for, reduced class sizes or ways she actually used the phrase, reducing class density.

[00:41:14] I don’t know if that’s sort of an exchangeable term, but to me it also suggested, you know, potentially using. Different spaces in the school to allow students to be spread out, you know, maybe that’s gym space or some of the larger classrooms. The other thing, the education minister has floated his outdoor classes for as long as the weather allows it to certain areas.

[00:41:38] This was something that was very popular during the 1918 flu pandemic, a lot of outdoor classrooms and even outdoor hospitals at that point. They’re also concerned about ventilation issues in schools, obviously, you know, newer builds, probably have more robust ventilation in HVAC systems. Then some of them were older schools that we have in the province, but she also fled concerns about, you know, classrooms that don’t have any windows or classrooms that don’t have windows that.

[00:42:06] Open when you don’t have a good ventilation system, and needing to find time to deal with some of those issues as well. She was very diplomatic about the, the, the logistics that are going into this clan and just how many complicating factors there are. The thing that has struck me about this push to get kids back to school.

[00:42:32] Is that right? There doesn’t seem to be a lot of disagreement. There are concerns from parents for sure, around, you know, Sending all kids back to school at the same time, trying the hybrid model like we had in June. But everybody seems to agree that it’s really important to get as many kids as possible back to something that looks like a normal classroom as soon as possible for students sakes for parents sakes.

[00:43:01] I don’t know if it’s so much for the teacher’s sake. I have certainly heard from a lot of friends and family members who are teachers who are really worried about. The timelines and the amount of issues at play and the various risks involved.

[00:43:15] Sonia Milbradt: yeah, so I think that, honestly, I.

[00:43:21]Shannon Waters: Would not

[00:43:22] Sonia Milbradt: want to teach online. I don’t think that that’s my skillset and I don’t think that’s the environment that I thrive in or enjoy. And I don’t, I think there are a number of teachers who love the classroom environment, but I too, along with Oh many teachers that you’ve probably heard from very concerned about heading back and worried, anxious about the environment.

[00:43:47]so while I. Want to be back in the classroom? I definitely, yes. Do,  more, more time, more understanding around what exactly this is going to look like. okay. Is needed in order to make sure that it is a safe environment, in particular, at the secondary level, they seem to think that a cohort of.

[00:44:10] 120 is okay. Where a cohort means there’s no need to physically distance or wear masks. which seems to contradict the fewer spaces in larger places. I also know that. these logistical things may not be solvable things like the fact that, my previous classroom was an interior classroom. It didn’t have windows, and it didn’t, there was no exterior, it was into a hallway.

[00:44:39] So even if I could get opening windows, they wouldn’t go to the outside to get fresh air. And I know there were other, exterior classrooms that their windows were not allowed to be opened during certain times of the day and things like that. so I think, yes, there’s a push to have students back into that environment.

[00:44:59] And I totally want to be back in that environment, but I just think that. 30 students back in my room, not wearing masks, not physically distancing, is just not an environment that myself or many teachers feel comfortable thinking about.

[00:45:19] Shannon Waters: Yeah.

[00:45:20] Scott de Lange Boom: So to me, it seems like the fundamental unsolved problem in the entire pandemic is how do you get a bunch of people to be in a room for multiple hours at a time without transmitting the virus, and that hasn’t actually been solved anywhere.

[00:45:37] And we’re just kind of pushing ahead, regardless of having that. Problem resolved.

[00:45:44] Shannon Waters: Yeah. Yeah. The thing that kind of caught my eye this week, it came up both in the, daily updates that the, the provincial health officer, the health minister provided most of which this week were simply statements, but there was a lot of language around the fact that.

[00:46:01] BCS plan to get kids back to school. This September, you know, they started development on it. We’re told in March, it was certainly informed by the sort of hybrid learning model that we had in June. But the assumption working from June was that we were going to have case rates and trans community transmission rates at a similar level to where we were in June, which is to say low.

[00:46:25] And that is not the case anymore. we are basically back to where we were at the beginning of may, if we’re talking about, you know, active cases and even some of the daily case counts that we’ve been seeing.  and that’s before, like school was purely online at that point in time and you weren’t supposed to be leaving your house unless you absolutely had to.

[00:46:49] You were supposed to be sort of trying to go to the grocery store as little as possible and not leaving your home community and that kind of thing. And now we’re looking at trying to open schools several weeks from now, when in the past several weeks we’ve seen our active cases. Skyrocket essentially.

[00:47:08] And so I think there is still a chance that the whole, you know, for all the planning that’s got into it for all the effort that’s been made for all the anxiety and uncertainty that it is because there is a possibility that the whole thing gets junked because our case transmission, like our transmission rate is just too high.

[00:47:26]Ian Bushfield: Yeah. Watching the modeling, this that came out this afternoon was rather terrifying. the charts just show this like. Exponential increase from where we are right now at 70 80. And so we do need to start bending that curve again, or things are going to get out of control. I mean, the one saving grace we’ve had is we haven’t had a lot of recent deaths largely because these cases are all in people under 40 and even largely, you know, under 30, which is being attributed to house parties and all these things that shouldn’t be happening or people spent getting too close or going to a bar when they shouldn’t be.

[00:48:01]The thing that strikes me about all these house parties is that’s. When you get a few high school students who shouldn’t be there, they’re getting sick, picking things up and then bringing it to school, which you know, is worrying. So we’ll have to see,  how things. Go and hopefully get it under control.

[00:48:25] Scott de Lange Boom: You came up on that.  so this, this cohort model thing they have going on here, perhaps, sorry, you should touch on or explain this a little bit, but if you have a group of 120 or even 60 people, I can see how that works. If you know, this is a boarding school and you can, you know, isolate people away from everyday life.

[00:48:47] But if you know, you have. Multiple intersections of the various cohorts, you know, family members split between them. And then, you know, there’s probably going to be some socializing going on outside and teachers maybe teach in multiple cohorts. Although I gather, they’re trying to minimize that there starts to be enough connections there that you really can’t consider a cohort to be an isolated group.

[00:49:10] Right. So how’s that supposed to work?

[00:49:14] Sonia Milbradt: your guess is as good as mine. so I think the biggest surprise to many with, Rob Fleming’s announcement about these cohorts or learning groups, was just this. Introduction of the idea that, Oh, we’ve come up with these numbers. And this seems to be the way we can move forward safely, however, at a secondary level, With 120, there are some, there are 16 public schools in BC that are greater than 1500 students.

[00:49:45] So if you’re trying to limit people’s interactions, they’re going to be having to change bell schedules. They’re going to be having to go through and look at every single student’s timetable. And at the high school level, they can’t just say, Oh, okay. All right. People who are taking, I don’t know, science 10 and pre-calculus 11 and, and a band and 11, et cetera, are all gonna go together because.

[00:50:12] There are so many options. Once they get to the grade 10, 11, 12 level, I just, I feel like it’s a logistical nightmare. I don’t think it’s going to be possible for the admin to come, come in and look at people and try to limit eight classes for all of these students to all align somehow.  it’s just, it’s.

[00:50:34]Mind boggling to think about how admin are supposed to do this. And that’s basically the mandate they’ve been given by the government is look, make it work, have them only interact with. 120 other students. and so they were all called back because, admin teams are not supposed to be working right now either.

[00:50:53] They’re all also on break. but most districts have called the back, to look at timetabling. And basically rejig everything including possibly going from linear to semester or from semester to quad master in order to try to create these cohorts. Nevermind if there’s siblings and other cohorts, extracurriculars with other people and other cohorts.

[00:51:18]yeah, the vice presidents and our vice principals and principals union, has said they need more time. On this, that was their union response. But,  yeah, the, the BC VPA asked for flexible start date, not to be September 8th. so I guess they got two more days, but, Timetabling, what has already been done, back in June, everyone already had their timetable.

[00:51:45] So they’re going to have to go back and look at everything, which means that, teachers can even relook at how to retake their courses because we might not even be teaching the same courses we thought we’d be teaching.

[00:51:56]Shannon Waters: Yeah. I said it to Terry this morning and I’ll say it again now, anytime I think about the logistics involved.

[00:52:03] In coordinating these cohorts classes and they have, like, they have said, you know, we’re going to be having different bell schedules. There’ll be different times for recess and different times for lunch, potentially different dismissal times, like all this kind of stuff, but it just gives me a headache even thinking about it.

[00:52:22] So I can’t imagine what it’s like for the people who have to actually do that planning. The one thing I will say, and I think this was. Communicated very poorly by the province.  and then the way the media talks to report things, it also sort of got twisted, but the not twisted, but maybe not explained as well, or as in detail as it could.

[00:52:46] Is the cohort sizes are supposed to be the maximums like wherever possible. These groups are supposed to be smaller than 60 in the case of elementary schools and smaller than one 20, who knows how much smaller, who knows how far that’s possible. It still doesn’t account for siblings and familial relationships and sort of all the other connections that one student may have.

[00:53:10]but in ideal circumstances, these will be smaller groups. Then the, you know, 60 to one 20 that we so often talk about at this point in time. I wonder if there’s even going to be banned at this point, like whatever issues that has come up again and again, And these sort of tragic illustrations are like choirs that got together to practice in the spring.

[00:53:35] And then like 80% of them ended up with COVID. And I mean, if you’re playing a stringed instrument, then maybe you don’t have to worry so much about increasing Kobe transmission, but certainly your whole brass and woodwind section is sounding like not a very good idea. In COVID times.

[00:53:52] Scott de Lange Boom: Yeah. It’s not very effective covert dispersal.

[00:53:56] Yeah.

[00:53:57] Shannon Waters: I don’t, I don’t know how you do that. And we’ve already been told, like, there aren’t going to be school wide assemblies, according to the province. There’s not going to be intermural sports competitions, you know, like schools won’t. Probably won’t be playing each other in, they might play, you know, sort of within groups within the school, but there’s not going to be sort of tournaments and stuff like that going on.

[00:54:20]but. You know, from an educational standpoint, music is just such a really awesome. And I say this as an incredibly privileged individual who got to play cello for nine years, through my high school, elementary and high school experience, you know, like music is such an amazing part of schooling that I feel really sad if they do end up axing all of that.

[00:54:38] But like I said, I wouldn’t want to be sitting next to like. A trumpet or a Saks or a flute player. I’m in a small room for like 90 minutes doing band practice these days.

[00:54:51] Ian Bushfield: I think dr. Henry suggested they could do band outside and distanced,

[00:54:56] Shannon Waters: which, how are you going to do that? In like 95% of this province as of October, lots of places are going to be covered in snow.

[00:55:05] At that point in time, you’re not going to be playing anything outside.

[00:55:08] Scott de Lange Boom: Okay, can you not marching fence? No shoes as part of their uniforms?

[00:55:12] Sonia Milbradt: Yeah, I, I was on the, one of the teachers, PA Facebook group pages. and they were saying this idea of, Oh, they can just go outside to do band or choir or drama.

[00:55:26] Scott de Lange Boom: just smacks of kind of a, let them eat cake kind of statement.

[00:55:32] Shannon Waters: Yeah, it just doesn’t seem, I mean, BC probably has a better chance of doing it than most Canadian provinces, at least, you know, for a few weeks or months in the fall, but it’s just not feasible to be outside, like in, in the top half of this province.

[00:55:47] And even further South kids don’t go outside at all during recess in the winter because in some places it’s so cold that they can’t without, you know, risking some serious issues.

[00:55:59] Scott de Lange Boom: A trumpet has a metal mouthpiece, right. That seems like a really good way to freeze a trumpet to your face.

[00:56:05] Shannon Waters: No, I hadn’t even thought about that.

[00:56:08] Ian Bushfield: Well, I think we’ll have to come back and learn more about this education plan as it rolls out in the coming weeks. Sonya, thanks for taking the time to join the podcast. I know you haven’t listened to much.

[00:56:22] Sonia Milbradt: Well, thank you for having me. Maybe I’ll have to listen to this episode.

[00:56:26] Scott de Lange Boom: okay. Well, moving on to our only quick, take a bunch of speculation, strategic leaks being put out to various media outlets out of Ottawa boat. the fate of bill Murano and maybe Mark Carney as well. so.  was put out in the globe earlier this week that a finance minister bill Moore knows job could be in jeopardy.

[00:56:55] This is after the whole wee affair where he kind of forgot about the 41,000

[00:57:04] Shannon Waters: in.

[00:57:05] Scott de Lange Boom: Trip expenses. He never paid and having his ended family member what’s for wee and not recusing himself. so there’s speculation. He may be honest,  on that as well. Well, as apparently sources inside the PMO or the government are saying that

[00:57:24] Shannon Waters: there’s

[00:57:24] Scott de Lange Boom: maybe questions about whether he’s the right person to.

[00:57:29] Lead the financial recovery

[00:57:31] Ian Bushfield: star also had a weird leak story about Trudeau wanting to really push forward a bold progressive agenda in the coming months. And so it kind of ties together with. This image that’s being painted a more, no, with being the spend thrift who wouldn’t let Justin Trudeau really advanced the big ticket items that he wanted to.

[00:57:54] And, you know, maybe this is the time for a big switch up and, you know, Canada land shortcuts. I was listening to just before kind of pitched it all as a, like, Who exactly is benefiting from all of these, you know, strategic leaks. Cause it’s clearly a channel change to talk about all of this, you know, traditional political speculation.

[00:58:17] Scott de Lange Boom: And rather than we

would have benefits because he, the focus comes off him onto more, no more nos, probably going to be the, the made to be the one who wears the waist scandal and something else that stuck out that’d be in the low bar article was they were talking about all of more no’s missteps. And one of them was the proposed legislation that would give treasury.

[00:58:44] The ability to basically not have to go to parliament for several years to raise taxes or borrow money. And that was framed as if it was, Oh, just bill Maher knows legislation when there was no way something that’s significant, didn’t come out of the PMO, especially with PMO that so tightly controlled and top down.

[00:59:09] Ian Bushfield: So we have all of that side and then we also have this. Series of stories about Mark Carney being first teased as he’s been named a special advisor. And now he has been officially named an advisor on the COVID-19 economic response. And this is Mark Carney, the like probably the most famous bank of.

[00:59:30] Canada governor, like the only one I could name. And he had also gone for a while over to the bank of England to guide them through Brexit. So he’s kind of known as like,

[00:59:40] Scott de Lange Boom: yeah, it’s fairly rare to run, not one, but two central banks

[00:59:43] Ian Bushfield: and to run them competently and through some pretty tough times.

[00:59:46] Scott de Lange Boom: Yeah. Oh, he’s a well-respected central banker and you know, not a bad person to bring on in a case where you’re going to have a lot of economic follow to deal with,

[00:59:59] Ian Bushfield: but he’s not elected. But then the CBC notes that the Toronto area writing of York center just became vacated. So maybe he could run there though. Apparently liberal sources are throwing cold water on that idea, but it’s not happening until it happens.

[01:00:17] Or maybe it will all get thrown off by the block, triggering an election.

[01:00:22] Scott de Lange Boom: That’s not going to happen.

[01:00:23] Ian Bushfield: You can’t blush up, wanted some headlines this week.

[01:00:25] Scott de Lange Boom: There’s no way it’s gonna happen. Cause you need the other parties to push the government into a vote of no confidence. And the conservatives basically a week from when you’re hearing this podcast to just be selecting their new leader, the.

[01:00:42] NDP is in no shape to fight an election. It’s not going to happen. It’s the block patrol and for media coverage,

[01:00:50] Ian Bushfield: like I do hope that this, these rumors of a bold, ambitious agenda pan out and we see something big come from the federal government. Been some good interim steps after some shakeups, like Serb was ultimately a pretty valuable program.

[01:01:08] And there’s a lot of concern about how it’s going to roll into AI in the coming months. CC PA put out a really strong point about if no changes are made to AI, like a vast majority of people who are unserved are going to be hung out to dry. And so there’s work that needs to be done there. Because the, you know, people haven’t recovered yet.

[01:01:30] We were talking earlier about the need for federal sick leave that was promised and hasn’t come forward. Yet. Childcare has been on the liberal agenda for 30 years, 20 years hasn’t come forward yet. So there’s a lot of room to do a lot. I just need to see it.

[01:01:47] Scott de Lange Boom: Yeah. And that’s that’s I can kind of see why we’re no, maybe, hopefully, because I don’t know that they’re wrong.

[01:01:53] That more, no’s not directly a person to lead transformational change. His tenure as finance minister is being undistinguished saved for a few scandals. And what was probably. Pre block or pre SNC level and the rockiest time for the liberal government when they tried to do that small business task change thing a couple of years back.

[01:02:20] Yeah. He is very much a kind of stay the course finance minister, which is usually a pretty good thing, but yup. And it’s athletes seem to be, you know, even a Jim Flaherty level finance minister. So yeah. Maybe not the worst idea to do a cabinet shuffle. And of course you have cabinet shuffle speculation is the only thing that is more common than early election speculation.

[01:02:46] Ian Bushfield: And I mean, we could speculate all evening here on where federal politics is going to go, but I think we’ll have to wait and see not much else is happening this summer. It’s a wait and see kind of end to the show. I guess

[01:03:00] Shannon Waters: I’d say not much else is happening now that those are dangerous words.

[01:03:05] Ian Bushfield: I like to, I like to live dangerously.

[01:03:07] Scott de Lange Boom: If nothing else that should give us content for the next topic.

[01:03:11] Ian Bushfield: Thanks for joining us. Shannon.

[01:03:13] Shannon Waters: Always good to, have a chat about politics.

[01:03:16] Scott de Lange Boom: Yeah. So, before signing off, can you just let our listeners know, where they can find you.

[01:03:20] Shannon Waters: Yes. And this time I will get, our website rights cause I did not have the suffix down last time. So if you’re looking for my writing on BC politics, as well as some selections from my colleagues in Alberta and Ontario, or you’re looking for a free trial, you can go to politics today.

[01:03:41] Dot news. if you’re interested in how I say it, my time on social media, my official all BC poly all the time account is at BC today. Official that includes color commentary on question period. When I don’t have. Other entries to do. And, if you have never seen pictures of my cat and also Ian’s two cats, cause they are frequently in my feed, as well as a little more snark and a little more feminism I’m at so bitter, so sweet on Twitter.

[01:04:17] Scott de Lange Boom: Okay, thanks for joining us.

[01:04:17] Shannon Waters: Thanks for having me.

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Background in physics, works in non-profit, an excess of opinions.

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